Friday, September 5, 2008

Halocho #164 - If Kiddush wine goes bad

If you make Kiddush and upon tasting the wine you discover it was water or vinegar: If you wash before Kiddush then you can make HaMotzi right away. No need to find and drink wine. If you wash after Kiddush, then you should find some good wine:

  • If there is a bottle of good wine on the table during Kiddush then you should drink that, without further ado.
  • If there is wine in the house (not on the table) that you plan on drinking during the meal, then use it to redo Kiddush (but without saying the Bracha of Hagafen again).
  • Otherwise you will need to start Kiddush all over again from the beginning, with a cup of good wine.

Source: Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 77:12 K'tiva V'chatima Tova; may you be inscribed for a year of health and happiness Shabbat Shalom, - Danny Erev Shabbat Shoftim, 5 Elul 5768


  1. Thank you. Very good.
    I know some people wash before kiddush (my boss for one) and I don't really understand that. If we are supposed to say a bracha and directly do the mitzvah and we wash for bread and can't even talk between washing and hamotzi, how is it okay to make kiddush in the middle?
    Thanks in advance for what I know will be an illuminating answer. Which is. of course, why I ask you!
    Shavua tov,

  2. Hi Shifra

    Firstly you should know that while we are not supposed to interrupt between washing and eating the bread, one is allowed to talk for those things required for eating.

    For example, one must say "feed the animals" (since one is not allowed to eat before feeding ones animals). One can say "bring the salt".

    Since one cannot eat without Kiddush, therefore Kiddush is not an interruption between washing and eating bread.

    Secondly, Kiddush needs to be make "in the location of" the meal and one is not allowed to interrupt between Kidush and eating.
    While going to wash is needed before eating, if one leaves the room it may invalidate the Kiddush.
    If one schmoozes about non-meal related issues one may invalidate the Kiddush.

    So making Kiddush first may not be a good idea...

    (Apologies for lack of sources - I'm pressed for time. If you want them I can find them.)

    That's the background. Now to the Halachot of Kiddush in the Mishna Brura Vol 3 page 97-98 (Siman 271:12)

    The Shulchan Aruch (271:12) says that one first makes Kiddush and then washes.
    The Mishna Brura (58) says that this applies only to the person making the Kiddush; the rest of those present should wash before Kiddush!

    The Remo says "one should first wash, then make Kiddush, and that is the custom and one should not change it."
    The Mishna Brura (62) writes that it's preferable to make Kiddush first. [Based on his comment in (58) one can assume this refers only to the person making the Kiddush.]

    As a general rule the Ashkenazim follow the Remo and the Sefardim follow the Shulchan Aruch.
    So the Sefardim have to make Kiddush first - and then be careful not to invalidate the Kiddush by leaving the room or talking.

    Ashkenazim should wash first unless they are the person making the Kiddush in which case there's a dispute how what the correct order is.

    The exception is Seder night when there's long break between Kiddush and Motzi-Matza. (Note that then the custom is to wash at the table, and not leave the room.)

    So why do so many Asjkenazim make Kiddush before washing? I don't know.

    Hope this helps,

    With wishes for a happy, healthy year,

    - Danny, who washes first, like all his ancestors did.

  3. Hi,
    I'm subscribed to halacha a day, and I had a question if you have time.

    How come a lot of frum people don't have pets? Is it assur?


  4. Hi Rivkah,

    Using as a base line, I would venture to say that most frum people have a family and spend their love, spare time and energy on their children and parents, grandparents and other needy humans.

    They don't have a need to have a pet to keep them busy, be an "ear" to listen to them or an object to shower love onto.

    That said, I know of frum people with pets - often as therapy for their bored/hyperactive children.

    There are lots of Mitzvot connected to pets like having to feed them first before each meal and making sure not to treat them badly (Tza'ar Ba'aley Chaim), not castrating them as well as certain Shabbat restrictions.

    It's not Assur to have pets if you can care for them properly. I grew up with dogs and birds as pets, and my in laws have a cat and fish.

    Hope This Helps

    - Danny

  5. What about Havdalah? I f the woman living alone, and noone to make her Havdalah, what to do?

  6. If a woman lives by herself and there's nobody to make Havdalah for her then she must make Havdalah by herself (with wine, spices and a candle) and she should drink the wine.

    Source: Mishna Brura 296:8:(35) - [Vol 3, page 143]

    Hope This Helps

    With wishes for a healthy, happy year,

    - Danny